RPG Forums

Go Back   RPG Forums > Role Playing Game Section > Twilight 2000 Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #61  
Old 10-12-2017, 05:43 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,092
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
I am actually coming up with a very logical explanation that details how the Mexicans got Russian equipment in City of Angels
This might not be that hard to explain. In the later stages of the Cold War the Soviets has a very large military presence in Cuba. The Lourdes SIGINT facility near Havana was the largest Soviet communications and SIGINT facility outside of the Soviet Union, used to relay transmissions to Soviet military units around the world and to monitor and collect American military transmissions. In the early 1990's Soviet military forces in Cuba stood at 7,700 personnel, including a motor rifle brigade of 2,800 troops organised into one armoured battalion, three motor rifle battalions, one artillery battalion, and one air defence units plus support. There were also 2,800 Soviet "advisors" and 2,100 Soviet troops assigned to signal intelligence. There were also as many 6,000 Soviet citizens in Cuba working in an advisory or technical role. There were further small detachments of Soviet troops/advisors in Nicaragua and Peru.

Cuba also providing landing bases for Tu-95D Bear bombers configured for reconnaissance, but capable of carrying nuclear bombs or launching nuclear missiles. The supersonic Tu-22 Backfire strategic bomber could also fly to Cuba, and at least three and maybe six Cuban airfields can handle the Backfire. The Soviets also supplied Cuba with a wing of Mig-27 fighter-bombers in addition to Mig-23 fighters, capable of carrying nuclear or conventional payloads up to 1,500 miles and believed to be frequently flown by Soviet and Warsaw Pact pilots. The Soviets also sent twenty-four AN-26 transport planes to Cuba, which are capable of carrying troops anywhere in the Caribbean region including Florida and Mexico. Batteries of modified SA-2 anti aircraft missiles were also based in Cuba. These large missiles, often equipped with nuclear weapons, can be employed in a surface-to-surface mode by the simple addition of a booster. They have an operational range in excess of 150 miles and could be used against ground targets in Florida.

Soviet warships also frequently called at Cuban ports, to train with the Cuban Navy, and patrol the southern and eastern coasts of the U.S. after replenishment in Cuba. Soviet warships seen in Cuba included missile cruisers, destroyers and submarines. The Punta Movida complex, a Soviet built facility linked by rail to Cienfuegos, was used to service nuclear weapons from Soviet submarines. Soviet marine research and space support ships also operated from Cuba, and intelligence collection ships based in Cuba operated off the east coast of the U.S.

Once war breaks out between NATO and the Warsaw Pact then Cuba will become very isolated, but before the Twilight War it would have been quite normal for Soviet ships and aircraft to visit Cuba. From when the Soviets invade China in 1995 to the period of German Reunification up until December 1996, NATO was not at war with the Warsaw Pact. It would also be reasonable to expect the Soviets to reinforce their bases and units overseas during this period, as this was exactly what the Americans, British and French would be doing. It would not be difficult for the Soviet to ship armoured vehicles, artillery and other weapons to Cuba by sea or air. Although the Americans would be monitoring Soviet air and shipping movements at this time and would notice any Soviet ships or aircraft visiting Mexico, it could be sent from Cuba to Mexico aboard Cuban aircraft or cargo ships. It could even have been sent through Nicaragua or some other location via ships of another nationality, before the rest of NATO crosses into East Germany and starts the Twilight War.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
and also explains what the heck a Russian task force was doing in the Gulf of California for the the USS Virginia task force to run into. Hopefully you guys will like it
This might be more difficult to explain, as I would expect most Soviet surface ships to have been sunk or moored at some remote Soviet port at this stage of the Twilight War.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:25 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,824
Default

Actually my idea is that the Soviets send a task force thru the Pacific escorting freighters that have equipment that was supposed to go to reinforce Soviet Division Cuba. The ships get to Baja, where the Soviets hear that a US Task Force is in the area. The Soviets sortie and fight the US and both sides basically get wiped out with the Virginia barely making it to shore.

Meanwhile the Mexican Constitutionalists, who need equipment badly, and with the Soviet naval forces destroyed grab it and ship it to California where it goes to equip the 1a Brigada - their biggest force in the area - which is about the size of the four Forces described in City of Angels - and bingo you get why the Soviet ships were in the area and how the Mexican Army in City of Angels - or at least that particular unit- got Soviet vehicles and armor
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:32 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,092
Default

City of Angels would not be my favourite sourcebook for many a reason.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:34 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,824
Default

Oh I know - its not a very good book - but it does give a good reason for having the Soviet naval forces there to fight the Virginia in Satellite Down - thats how the Mexicans on the West Coast ended up getting Soviet equipment - i.e. why are a force of oil powered Soviet destroyers are all the way into the Gulf of Mexico - well that would explain it if they were delivering equipment for the Division Cuba and got into a losing gunfight in the process and the Mexicans stole the equipment to use it themselves
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 10-13-2017, 12:22 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,092
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
Oh I know - its not a very good book - but it does give a good reason for having the Soviet naval forces there to fight the Virginia in Satellite Down - thats how the Mexicans on the West Coast ended up getting Soviet equipment - i.e. why are a force of oil powered Soviet destroyers are all the way into the Gulf of Mexico - well that would explain it if they were delivering equipment for the Division Cuba and got into a losing gunfight in the process and the Mexicans stole the equipment to use it themselves
But the Soviets or Cuba could have delivered equipment to Mexico before the Twilight War starts as well. Certainly the Mexicans would have needed better or heavier armour and weapons than what they had in real life to have had a chance against American forces once they cross the U.S. border.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 10-13-2017, 08:34 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,824
Default

There is no way that Mexico would have taken Soviet equipment before the war started with the US - that would have led to the US, who was at war with the Soviets, being much better prepared for war with Mexico, even most likely to the point of a pre-emptive strike against Mexico.

After Mexico invades the US thats one thing - but beforehand wouldnt have happened

Besides if you look at their army if they had gotten more equipment from anyone it would have been France - most of their APC's were French for instance as were their armored cars - and the Mexican logistics system was bad enough as is to incorporate material from another country's design practices and spare parts as well

Plus keep in mind that Mexico wasnt planning for war with the US - the war was very much a come as you are war - if you look at the Challenge Magazine article on the Mexican invasion you can tell that it was close to impromptu - i.e. lots of reinforcing units werent even in position yet when the invasion happened

plus by mid 1998 most of the US heavy armor is either in Europe, Iran or Korea - what they faced was mostly light infantry and security units - which is why they got as far as they did - basically Soviet Division Cuba stopped the 49th and saved their position in Texas and the 40th only had a grab bag of armor and that was enough to stop them in CA - its why I said that the chances of them holding onto the American Southwest, or at least as much as 2300AD said they did is nil

as in nada, zilch, zero

however holding onto a smaller area might be possible - but there is no way the US just sits there and lets them keep half of CA, over half of AZ and NM and all of Texas - sorry but that is completo sin sentido - i.e. complete nonsense - and the fact the the US controls the water is the big factor - I have a feeling the original authors never took the time to research that fact

Last edited by Olefin; 10-13-2017 at 01:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 10-13-2017, 02:20 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,092
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
There is no way that Mexico would have taken Soviet equipment before the war started with the US - that would have led to the US, who was at war with the Soviets, being much better prepared for war with Mexico, even most likely to the point of a pre-emptive strike against Mexico.
Unless Mexico was getting weapons that would be a real threat to U.S. forces such as jet fighters, ballistic missiles and long ranged air defence missiles, the Americans would not be that concerned about Mexico buying a few Soviet tanks and artillery. Many other countries bought weapons from the Soviets and they were not aligned with the Soviet Union. Also the Americans could only stop Mexico from buying American or NATO weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
After Mexico invades the US thats one thing - but beforehand wouldnt have happened

Besides if you look at their army if they had gotten more equipment from anyone it would have been France - most of their APC's were French for instance as were their armored cars - and the Mexican logistics system was bad enough as is to incorporate material from another country's design practices and spare parts as well

Plus keep in mind that Mexico wasnt planning for war with the US - the war was very much a come as you are war - if you look at the Challenge Magazine article on the Mexican invasion you can tell that it was close to impromptu - i.e. lots of reinforcing units werent even in position yet when the invasion happened
It would be a lot easier getting Soviet weapons before the Twilight War starts. Afterwards it would be very hard to get Soviet weapons to Mexico. The fact that the Soviet Division Cuba was even deployed to Mexico is one of the mysteries of T2K.

Mexican forces at this time used a mixture of American and French equipment, much of it older. But City of Angels has the Mexican occupation force equipped in its entirety with Soviet armoured vehicles. This fact stands out like a sore thumb, but here we have it. How did they get it? Who knows, but there is obviously not an awful lot of it. Maybe Division Cuba transferred some of their vehicles to the Mexicans to stiffen them up on the front line in Southern California.

I don't know what the Mexicans were planning before the war, maybe it was an opportunistic land grab. But it clearly hasn't worked out to well for them even in canon T2K. All of their forces are over extended, and many units have split into rival factions or just fallen apart and turned to marauding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
plus by mid 1998 most of the US heavy armor is either in Europe, Iran or Korea - what they faced was mostly light infantry and security units - which is why they got as far as they did - basically Soviet Division Cuba stopped the 49th and saved their position in Texas and the 40th only had a grab bag of armor and that was enough to stop them in CA - its why I said that the chances of them holding onto the American Southwest, or at least as much as 2300AD said they did is nil

as in nada, zilch, zero

however holding onto a smaller area might be possible - but there is no way the US just sits there and lets them keep half of CA, over half of AZ and NM and all of Texas - sorry but that is completo sin sentido - i.e. complete nonsense - and the fact the the US controls the water is the big factor - I have a feeling the original authors never took the time to research that fact
I don't think all of the U.S. armoured forces were deployed overseas, although there probably wasn't much in the southwest when the Mexicans crossed the border. I am not disagreeing with you over the facts of the Mexican invasion of the American southwest. I think the Mexicans could have crossed over and overran some disorientated and badly prepared lighter U.S. forces in the early stages of the invasion. But I would not expect then to hold U.S. territory for too long afterwards.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 10-13-2017, 02:40 PM
mpipes mpipes is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 111
Default

Here is my take on Mexican military power buildup. I have never believed Mexico could mount a successful invasion with some major pre-war developments.

MEXICAN MILITARY BUILDUP NOTES

Mexico discovered and began earnest development of extensive deposits of oil and gas, titanium, gold, and silver in the late 1970s and early 1980s. By 1979, with the US economy suffering through oil shortages and other disruptions to energy and other needs, the Mexican government became increasingly concerned about its country’s ability to forestall a possible invasion should the US become desperately short of energy supplies. Mexico was also increasingly becoming a “rich” nation, but its reputation suffered on the world stage because of its lack of participation in international affairs.
As Mexico pondered its future in the world, it seemed obvious that one avenue was to expand participation in world affairs through peace keeping missions with the UN. First, Mexico amended its constitution to permit deployment of up to a battalion without a declaration of war to support UN missions. Second, Mexico embarked on a program to markedly expand its military forces. Finally, its diplomatic service and foreign minister became more vocal and assertive in promoting foreign business and trade with oil sales increasingly aimed at European and Pacific rim countries.
Mexico approached Israel to purchase Merkava Mk II, M50, and M51 tanks and Kifir fighters in 1980. However, the US moved in to block sales of the Kifir and pressured Israel to not sale the advanced Merkava tank to Mexico. The US also offered to sale retired USN frigates to Mexico and more F-5E fighters. The US also deemed the sale of Israeli M50 and M51 tanks as sufficient to cover Mexico’s defense needs, but did offer to sale a quantity of M48A3s to Mexico. The Mexican government considered the offer patronizing and insulting, viewing the Americans as trying to dictate Mexico’s force structure and defense needs. It rejected the offer out of hand, although Mexico operated 18 F-5E contracted for in the 1970s.
In 1985, Mexico approached France and Germany, which were both very willing to sale weapons to the Mexicans and not worried about irritating the American government. From France, Mexico concluded a deal to purchase 54 Mirage F-1E multi-role fighters, 60 ex-French Jaguar A attack fighters, and 300 AMX-30S tanks as well as APCs and light armor. The deal called for re-manufacturing surplus AMX-30S tanks with French assistance into TAB-30s. Mexico also purchased AMX Mk F3 L30 155mm, AMX Mk F3 L22 155mm, and AMX VCA artillery support vehicles. Upgunned AMX-13s and ERC-90s were included as well. Mexico also negotiated to buy 28 Mirage 4000 fighters and 100 AMX-40 tanks along with a license to build AMX-40 tanks. It also had an option to buy 20 more Mirage 4000 fighters, 20 AMX-40 tanks, and 100 AMX-30 tanks, which Mexico exercised in 1986.
From Germany, Mexico purchased five MEKO 360 destroyer/frigates, seven MEKO 140 frigate/corvettes, and four MEKO 200 frigates. Mexico also bought 30 M-48A3s from German stocks as an interim measure till the TAB-30s entered service. The M48A3s entered service in 1987 (later returned to Germany after war broke out). Mexico also managed to buy a few Merkava II tanks for evaluation and followed through with buying obsolete M-4 Sherman variants from Israel.
After German reunification, as Germany initially sought to dispose of East Germany’s military equipment, Mexico entered negotiations to purchase additional arms. In 1992, a deal was struck with the Germans purchasing 3 Kolin-class frigates, 9 minesweepers, 58 MiG-21M Fishbed-Js along with 7 MiG-21UM trainers, as well as 400 BTR-70s APCs, and 12 Mil-24D attack helicopters. However, by the end of 1992, Germany re-evaluated its decision to essentially de-mobilize the bulk of the East German military. The reality of the Soviet’s behavior post-coup was rapidly dispelling belief in the end of the “Cold War,” and it became increasingly evident that the Cold War was only paused. Although the frigates, minesweepers, helicopters, and MiGs were delivered as planned, the BTR-70 sale was canceled. Instead, 300 BTR-60s and two additional Mil-24Ds were delivered. Mexico also managed to purchase 112 SO-122 self-propelled howitzer and 96 D-30 122mm and 104 L118 105mm towed howitzers. Mexico also purchased a number of MiG-23s (18 MiG-23BN, 9 MiG-23MFs, and 2 MiG-23UBs) from Germany. Germany also included a number of MiG-21F-13s still held in their reserve stocks. Over 400 air-to-air missiles were also included (AA-2s, AA-7s, AA-8s, and AA-11s). A number of ex-Cuban Air Force pilots and personnel were successfully recruited to aid the Mexican Air Force’s integration of the new equipment
Despite the outbreak of war in 1995, Mexico received its purchases on time from France and even managed to purchase additional fighters. However, one MEKO 140 and one MEKO 200 were never delivered by Germany, with both diverted to German needs. By 1995, Mexico was producing the AMX-40 at a rate of 120 tanks a year as well as APCs. Its military was considered well trained and formidable in its overall power and competence by Latin American governments. Although the US government was aware of the build-up, most US officials, and the military, continued to view the Mexican military with relative disdain. That did not last long as the Mexican army steam rolled onto the central plains and into California and Texas in 1998. By 1999, the Mexican army was rightly regarded as the best trained military force in the Americas; better on average than the Russians and the National Guard units in that theater. Forcing them out was going to be a challenge.
By 1998 and the start of the war with America, Mexico had in service the following MBTs:
TAB-30 358
AMX-30 16
AMX-30S 22
AMX-40 503
Leopard 1A6 60 (with French GIAT 120mm guns)
Merkava II 12
M50 136
M51 322
TOTAL 1429
The Mexican Air Force in 1998 included the following combat aircraft:
Mirage F-1E 130
Mirage F-1S 14
MiG-21F-13 36
MiG-21M 58
MiG-21UM 7
MiG-23BN 30
MiG-23MF 10
MiG-23UB 3
Mirage 4000 70
Jaguar A 76
L-39Z 27
F-5E 28
TOTAL 470
The MiG-21Ms, MiG-23BNs/MFs and L-39Zs had been updated to use Magic II IRMs, which the Mexican’s possessed in considerable numbers. The Israelis also updated a number of MiG-21M to use the Python-4. The MiG-21F-13s continued to use AA-8 and AA-11 missiles, but they were for the most part retained for air defense in Mexico, though the pilots primarily trained for the attack role (armed with a pair of rocket pods and two 1100-lb bombs) and used that training during the civil war, hitting rebel ground forces advancing on Mexico City. A few of the F-13s (about 12) could use the Magic II as well. Mexican combat squadrons numbered between 12 to 20 aircraft. A few foreign “contractors” were available as well, including Russian, Cuban, French, and Spanish pilots – between 40 and 50. The Mirage pilots were considered the best, but the top scorer was a Mexican MiG-21M pilot, Jose Chevas, using mostly Python-4 IRMs (47 confirmed kills by 2000) and flying over the California and New Mexico fronts.
Still, the Mexican Army in 1998 really comprised a motley assortment of both WWII era light armor and more modern armored vehicles ranging from upgunned 1950s AMX-13s to modern AMX-40 tanks. Despite this (and the logistics challenge that inevitably followed) Mexico proceeded to overrun much of the US southwest and Great Plains.
After the invasion, Mexico also captured over 250 intact M-60A1 and M-60A3 awaiting upgrade, and a further 57 M-60A4s, as well as over 450 M113s. These were placed into service along with 84 captured M-48A5s. By late 2000, maintaining all these varied tank types was challenging to say the least, and many were sidelined by maintenance and repair issues, not to mention lack of fuel.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 10-13-2017, 02:45 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,824
Default

If you look at what engaged them when they invaded there wasnt much in the way of armor

49th Armored - biggest armored division that directly engaged the Mexicans - they never sent the two training brigades which to me makes no sense - they did well against the Mexicans and then ran into Soviet Division Cuba and got their butts handed to them

40th Mech - a new unit that had a grab bag of armor attached to it - meaning that they never had their full complement or even close to it - which can be seen by how many engineering "tanks" they used

46th Infantry - got overrun when stretched out badly and wasnt exactly a armor heavy unit to begin with

then you have two MP formations in CA and light infantry divisions that basically had no armor except M113's

and remember Mexico started the war with 500 or so APC's, many of them armed with 20mm cannons, as well as a good amount of armored cars that had a 90mm anti-tank gun - so against most of those units I just described they actually were close to one on one or better - and with the numbers involved they had numerical superiority as well - and most likely had gas and diesel when a lot of US units had already converted over to alcohol

and the date of the invasion - June of 1998- means that what was left of the US Air Force in the states was probably very limited indeed
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 10-13-2017, 02:50 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,824
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpipes View Post
Here is my take on Mexican military power buildup. I have never believed Mexico could mount a successful invasion with some major pre-war developments.

MEXICAN MILITARY BUILDUP NOTES

Mexico discovered and began earnest development of extensive deposits of oil and gas, titanium, gold, and silver in the late 1970s and early 1980s. By 1979, with the US economy suffering through oil shortages and other disruptions to energy and other needs, the Mexican government became increasingly concerned about its country’s ability to forestall a possible invasion should the US become desperately short of energy supplies. Mexico was also increasingly becoming a “rich” nation, but its reputation suffered on the world stage because of its lack of participation in international affairs.
As Mexico pondered its future in the world, it seemed obvious that one avenue was to expand participation in world affairs through peace keeping missions with the UN. First, Mexico amended its constitution to permit deployment of up to a battalion without a declaration of war to support UN missions. Second, Mexico embarked on a program to markedly expand its military forces. Finally, its diplomatic service and foreign minister became more vocal and assertive in promoting foreign business and trade with oil sales increasingly aimed at European and Pacific rim countries.
Mexico approached Israel to purchase Merkava Mk II, M50, and M51 tanks and Kifir fighters in 1980. However, the US moved in to block sales of the Kifir and pressured Israel to not sale the advanced Merkava tank to Mexico. The US also offered to sale retired USN frigates to Mexico and more F-5E fighters. The US also deemed the sale of Israeli M50 and M51 tanks as sufficient to cover Mexico’s defense needs, but did offer to sale a quantity of M48A3s to Mexico. The Mexican government considered the offer patronizing and insulting, viewing the Americans as trying to dictate Mexico’s force structure and defense needs. It rejected the offer out of hand, although Mexico operated 18 F-5E contracted for in the 1970s.
In 1985, Mexico approached France and Germany, which were both very willing to sale weapons to the Mexicans and not worried about irritating the American government. From France, Mexico concluded a deal to purchase 54 Mirage F-1E multi-role fighters, 60 ex-French Jaguar A attack fighters, and 300 AMX-30S tanks as well as APCs and light armor. The deal called for re-manufacturing surplus AMX-30S tanks with French assistance into TAB-30s. Mexico also purchased AMX Mk F3 L30 155mm, AMX Mk F3 L22 155mm, and AMX VCA artillery support vehicles. Upgunned AMX-13s and ERC-90s were included as well. Mexico also negotiated to buy 28 Mirage 4000 fighters and 100 AMX-40 tanks along with a license to build AMX-40 tanks. It also had an option to buy 20 more Mirage 4000 fighters, 20 AMX-40 tanks, and 100 AMX-30 tanks, which Mexico exercised in 1986.
From Germany, Mexico purchased five MEKO 360 destroyer/frigates, seven MEKO 140 frigate/corvettes, and four MEKO 200 frigates. Mexico also bought 30 M-48A3s from German stocks as an interim measure till the TAB-30s entered service. The M48A3s entered service in 1987 (later returned to Germany after war broke out). Mexico also managed to buy a few Merkava II tanks for evaluation and followed through with buying obsolete M-4 Sherman variants from Israel.
After German reunification, as Germany initially sought to dispose of East Germany’s military equipment, Mexico entered negotiations to purchase additional arms. In 1992, a deal was struck with the Germans purchasing 3 Kolin-class frigates, 9 minesweepers, 58 MiG-21M Fishbed-Js along with 7 MiG-21UM trainers, as well as 400 BTR-70s APCs, and 12 Mil-24D attack helicopters. However, by the end of 1992, Germany re-evaluated its decision to essentially de-mobilize the bulk of the East German military. The reality of the Soviet’s behavior post-coup was rapidly dispelling belief in the end of the “Cold War,” and it became increasingly evident that the Cold War was only paused. Although the frigates, minesweepers, helicopters, and MiGs were delivered as planned, the BTR-70 sale was canceled. Instead, 300 BTR-60s and two additional Mil-24Ds were delivered. Mexico also managed to purchase 112 SO-122 self-propelled howitzer and 96 D-30 122mm and 104 L118 105mm towed howitzers. Mexico also purchased a number of MiG-23s (18 MiG-23BN, 9 MiG-23MFs, and 2 MiG-23UBs) from Germany. Germany also included a number of MiG-21F-13s still held in their reserve stocks. Over 400 air-to-air missiles were also included (AA-2s, AA-7s, AA-8s, and AA-11s). A number of ex-Cuban Air Force pilots and personnel were successfully recruited to aid the Mexican Air Force’s integration of the new equipment
Despite the outbreak of war in 1995, Mexico received its purchases on time from France and even managed to purchase additional fighters. However, one MEKO 140 and one MEKO 200 were never delivered by Germany, with both diverted to German needs. By 1995, Mexico was producing the AMX-40 at a rate of 120 tanks a year as well as APCs. Its military was considered well trained and formidable in its overall power and competence by Latin American governments. Although the US government was aware of the build-up, most US officials, and the military, continued to view the Mexican military with relative disdain. That did not last long as the Mexican army steam rolled onto the central plains and into California and Texas in 1998. By 1999, the Mexican army was rightly regarded as the best trained military force in the Americas; better on average than the Russians and the National Guard units in that theater. Forcing them out was going to be a challenge.
By 1998 and the start of the war with America, Mexico had in service the following MBTs:
TAB-30 358
AMX-30 16
AMX-30S 22
AMX-40 503
Leopard 1A6 60 (with French GIAT 120mm guns)
Merkava II 12
M50 136
M51 322
TOTAL 1429
The Mexican Air Force in 1998 included the following combat aircraft:
Mirage F-1E 130
Mirage F-1S 14
MiG-21F-13 36
MiG-21M 58
MiG-21UM 7
MiG-23BN 30
MiG-23MF 10
MiG-23UB 3
Mirage 4000 70
Jaguar A 76
L-39Z 27
F-5E 28
TOTAL 470
The MiG-21Ms, MiG-23BNs/MFs and L-39Zs had been updated to use Magic II IRMs, which the Mexican’s possessed in considerable numbers. The Israelis also updated a number of MiG-21M to use the Python-4. The MiG-21F-13s continued to use AA-8 and AA-11 missiles, but they were for the most part retained for air defense in Mexico, though the pilots primarily trained for the attack role (armed with a pair of rocket pods and two 1100-lb bombs) and used that training during the civil war, hitting rebel ground forces advancing on Mexico City. A few of the F-13s (about 12) could use the Magic II as well. Mexican combat squadrons numbered between 12 to 20 aircraft. A few foreign “contractors” were available as well, including Russian, Cuban, French, and Spanish pilots – between 40 and 50. The Mirage pilots were considered the best, but the top scorer was a Mexican MiG-21M pilot, Jose Chevas, using mostly Python-4 IRMs (47 confirmed kills by 2000) and flying over the California and New Mexico fronts.
Still, the Mexican Army in 1998 really comprised a motley assortment of both WWII era light armor and more modern armored vehicles ranging from upgunned 1950s AMX-13s to modern AMX-40 tanks. Despite this (and the logistics challenge that inevitably followed) Mexico proceeded to overrun much of the US southwest and Great Plains.
After the invasion, Mexico also captured over 250 intact M-60A1 and M-60A3 awaiting upgrade, and a further 57 M-60A4s, as well as over 450 M113s. These were placed into service along with 84 captured M-48A5s. By late 2000, maintaining all these varied tank types was challenging to say the least, and many were sidelined by maintenance and repair issues, not to mention lack of fuel.
here is the problem - given the US forces left in the country you would either need to completely change them over to armor heavy forces - or the Mexican Army wouldnt have been stopped at all - basically if they had that force level they would have taken the entire American West and deep into the South - i.e. basically its game over unless the US starts to use nukes on its own soil

So either you need to scrap the US Army Guide and bring a lot more armor home - or have the Mexicans take all of Texas, OK, Kansas, AZ, NM, CA, UT, CO, AK, NV and maybe even MO before they are stopped after a series of nuclear strikes on our own soil
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 10-13-2017, 03:11 PM
Raellus's Avatar
Raellus Raellus is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Marana, AZ
Posts: 2,456
Default

Anders Larsson (aka Turboswede) created a pretty good Mexican Army sourcebook. IMHO, he did a good job beefing up the Mexican Army without making it too strong. His added armor is mostly up-gunned Shermans and AMX-30s, which makes sense to me.

http://www.pmulcahy.com/PDFs/Mexican...Sourcebook.pdf

My issue with the Soviet AFVs being delivered after the U.S. and U.S.S.R. at war is that the USN would really have to have dropped the ball, or been severely degraded, to allow a large merchantman or two to cross the Pacific from the U.S.S.R.. That's not to say that it couldn't happen, but I just don't see the Soviets risking something like that.

The idea that the equipment was transshipped via Cuba before the U.S. and U.S.S.R. were officially at war makes a bit more sense to me. Perhaps the AFVs were originally intended for Division Cuba but then given to the Mexicans shortly after they invaded the SW?

Could the equipment have come south from the Soviet forces in Alaska and/or the Pacific Northwest? Highly unlikely, IMO, but it's another option to consider.

Overall, I am one who can see how a surprise Mexican invasion, fueled by gasoline & diesel, and using civilian trucking to transport troops and supplies, could swiftly overrun the U.S. Southwest while the bulk of U.S. forces were dispersed to Europe, Korea, and the Middle East- even without an injection of more armor. That said, I like the idea of adding a bit of heavy armor- it makes the scenario more plausible from a macro perspective, and interesting from a micro (i.e. player playing in a CONUS campaign) perspective.
__________________
Dulce bellum inexpertis. - Erasmus
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 10-13-2017, 03:27 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,824
Default

You dont really need the heavy armor to make it work - not when you have Soviet Division Cuba along for the ride - you basically have one heavy armored division fighting another one in Texas - and then a bunch of mechanized units with armored cars and APC's, some with TOW's fighting a single mech division that isnt even close to full strength, a very weak mech inf division, and a bunch of light units in CA - and AZ and NM basically left holding the bag trying to fight what they sent with reservist and NG units

and how do the Soviets send that armor across the Pacific - answer - the destroyer task force that took on the Virginia in Satellite Down - basically sent to escort three to four freighters with equipment and then destroyers lost against the Virginia - explains the Soviet equipment that was in City of Angels - i.e. 1a Brigada takes huge losses and gets re-equipped - by 2001 timing most of what they received is either gone from fighting or out of action due to maintenance issues associated with lack of spare parts and lack of trained maintenance personnel
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 10-13-2017, 03:30 PM
Rainbow Six's Avatar
Rainbow Six Rainbow Six is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 1,374
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
If you look at what engaged them when they invaded there wasnt much in the way of armor
17tth Armoured Brigade was based at Fort Irwin, California in the V1 timeline. I'm well aware that it wasn't a heavy armoured brigade but it did have a number of M551 Sheridans which might have been bad news for any Mexican forces riding in unarmoured vehicles (requisitioned pick ups, etc)

And if you were a Mexican scout and you saw one of these would you know the main gun is a mock up?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...ismod_T-80.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raellus View Post
The idea that the equipment was transshipped via Cuba before the U.S. and U.S.S.R. were officially at war makes a bit more sense to me. Perhaps the AFVs were originally intended for Division Cuba but then given to the Mexicans shortly after they invaded the SW?
This strikes me as the most plausible explanation.

The idea of a Soviet merchant convoy making a pacific crossing at a late stage in the War to deliver equipment to Division Cuba makes zero sense to me. I'd suggest that if the Soviets were in a position to send such a convoy its most likely purpose would be to repatriate Division Cuba back to the Soviet Union.
__________________
A collection of articles written for the Twilight 2000 Role Playing Game

http://www.twilight2000files.com
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 10-13-2017, 03:39 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,824
Default

in the new module I am working on I actually have the 177th engaging them as they came across the border and buying time for them to try to get reinforcements to stop the attack - but being overwhelmed due to sheer numbers - keep in mind this isnt a bunch of guys in trucks - the 1a Brigada and the Cav unit that came in had a bunch of APC's and armored cars with 90mm guns - taking them on with old Sheridans is not going to be fun

and I think the convoy is very realistic - it completely explains the reason Soviet destroyers were in the Gulf of Mexico - why were they there - they were escorting a shipment of equipment that was supposed to go to Division Cuba - and instead it got taken by the Mexicans - i.e. it wasnt enough to form a whole new unit- just reinforcements to make the unit stronger and fill in holes in their TOE -

i.e. Satellite Down is canon saying the Soviets sent that destroyer task force - so the question is why - I highly doubt it was just to hunt down the Virginia - thats a lot of scarce oil to burn for a ship that was leaving the Pacific
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 10-13-2017, 04:19 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,092
Default

What the Mexican Army had at this time in real life.

45x Light Tanks (45x M-3/5)
310x Reconnaissance (50x M-8, 120x ERC-90F, 40x M11 VBL, 70x DN-3/5, 30x MOWAG,)
135x APC (40x HWK-11, 30x M-3 Halftrack, 40x VCR/TT, 25x VAP 3550) (* Marines had 25x VAP 3550)
5x SP Artillery (5x M-8)
126x Towed Artillery (118x 105mm M116, M2A1, M3 & M101) (* Marines had 8x 105mm)
30x Anti-Tank Guns (30x 37mm M3)
1,500x Mortars (60x 120mm, 1,440x 81mm)
40x Air Defence Guns (30x M-55)
? Anti-Tank (Milan)
? Recoilless Rifle (106mm M40A1)

The Air Force had........

11x F-5E/F
70x PC-7
12x AT-33
10x IAI-201
25x Armed Helicopters

plus and assortment of very old transport aircraft, a few modern light transport and patrol aircraft, and some VIP jets. They also had about 40 medium and light helicopters, some new, some old and many of them commercial grade.


According to Paul Mulcahy's Mexcan Army Sourcebook.........

Under a modernization program initiated in the late 1980s, the Mexican government intended to substantially upgrade its mechanized capabilities. In 1988 SEDENA purchased 300 AMX-30 main battle tanks from the French government which had been held in reserve since the late 1970’s. Part of the agreement involved the local upgrading of the tanks to B2 standard with replacement diesel power packs by SNECMA and new GIAT 105mm guns. With the backing of the Mexican government, a joint venture (Tecnologías de la Defensa Nacional - “TDN”) was formed by Grupo Bocar and Grupo KUO to remanufacture French AMX-30s to AMX-30B2 standard, the refurbished tanks known as the TanqueMedio de Batalla-30 or TAB-30.

Along with tanks, SEDENA purchased France’s remaining inventory of AMX-13 series armored vehicles including the AMX-13 light tanks, AMX-VCI armored personnel carriers and Mk F3 self propelled howitzers. Throughout the 80’s and 90’s DieselNacional produced various versions of the “DN” series armored wheeled vehicle for the Mexican Army. Diesel Nacional was appointed the task of remanufacturing the French vehicles, many of which had not been operated in more than 20 years. In addition to domestic production, the Mexican army purchased a significant amount of new equipment, in many cases replacing equipment that dated from the World War II period. The army's inventory of missile systems was expanded and updated. Both the Milan and Eryx anti tank guided missile systems were acquired from France. In the air defense role Mexico purchased over 1,000 Mistral man portable surface to air missile systems from MBDA missile systems.

Since the 1950’s Mexico had been a major operator of the World War II vintage M7 self propelled 105mm howitzer. In 1990 Mexico purchased Israel’s stock of M7s. In addition to the M7 purchase, Mexico acquired over 200 Mk F3 155mm self propelled guns along with support vehicles from France and Belgium
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 10-13-2017, 04:32 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,824
Default

Actually you left out the 409 AMX-VCI APC's that were converted to DNC-1 and armed with a 20mm cannon - and which would been much more than a match for the M113's the Army light divisions were equipped with

and the Mexican Army Sourcebook is a fan canon piece not official - I tend to go with actual equipment - and like I said against what the US had left the Mexicans would have been able to do a lot of damage - this isnt a well equipped US Army that they were facing - you are looking at units short on fuel, with almost all their modern missiles and ammo sent overseas and low on spare parts and replacement vehicles

whereas the Mexican Army hadnt done any fighting as of yet - and keep in mind that the units taking on the Soviets in Alaska probably sucked up most of what there was in the US as to anti-tank and anti-air missiles and modern artillery ammo

you dont need an uber Mexican Army to do what they did in the canon as far as the initial invasion

because if you do make them that well equipped then they end up occupying half the US based on what was left here by mid 1998

and much of the fighting in places like California would have been done initially in built up areas - i.e. perfect places to ambush a modern tank with infantry - and except for the cadre they brought home for the 40th there were almost no combat vets in the US - a lot of the troops fighting them were training troops thrust into combat against armor - and even old armor can be damn impressive if you dont have any armor backing you up

Give the Mexicans whats in the fan canon sourcebook and they end up washing the dirt off their tanks using water from the Mississippi River and San Francisco Bay
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 10-13-2017, 05:11 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,092
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
Actually you left out the 409 AMX-VCI APC's that were converted to DNC-1 and armed with a 20mm cannon - and which would been much more than a match for the M113's the Army light divisions were equipped with
And were these in service during the Twilight War period?

From what I've seen Mexico bought the AMX-VCI after the end of the Cold War and they bought them from Belgium. In 1992 the Belgian Army has 510 AMX-VCI listed under its army, and with the Cold War in full swing I couldn't see them selling any to Mexico until they had started building a replacement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
and the Mexican Army Sourcebook is a fan canon piece not official - I tend to go with actual equipment - and like I said against what the US had left the Mexicans would have been able to do a lot of damage - this isnt a well equipped US Army that they were facing - you are looking at units short on fuel, with almost all their modern missiles and ammo sent overseas and low on spare parts and replacement vehicles

whereas the Mexican Army hadnt done any fighting as of yet - and keep in mind that the units taking on the Soviets in Alaska probably sucked up most of what there was in the US as to anti-tank and anti-air missiles and modern artillery ammo

you dont need an uber Mexican Army to do what they did in the canon as far as the initial invasion

because if you do make them that well equipped then they end up occupying half the US based on what was left here by mid 1998

and much of the fighting in places like California would have been done initially in built up areas - i.e. perfect places to ambush a modern tank with infantry - and except for the cadre they brought home for the 40th there were almost no combat vets in the US - a lot of the troops fighting them were training troops thrust into combat against armor - and even old armor can be damn impressive if you dont have any armor backing you up

Give the Mexicans whats in the fan canon sourcebook and they end up washing the dirt off their tanks using water from the Mississippi River and San Francisco Bay
Its the only extra material available relating to Mexican forces in the Twilight War. You can disagree or agree with it, but Mexican forces in real life were woefully outgunned by even the U.S. National Guard. They would need to upgrade their army to some degree to even have half a chance of invading American territory.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 10-13-2017, 09:37 PM
The Dark The Dark is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 223
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
And were these in service during the Twilight War period?

From what I've seen Mexico bought the AMX-VCI after the end of the Cold War and they bought them from Belgium. In 1992 the Belgian Army has 510 AMX-VCI listed under its army, and with the Cold War in full swing I couldn't see them selling any to Mexico until they had started building a replacement.
According to Jane's, the first delivery of the DNC-1 was in 1993, the same year as the DNC-2/BDX. They're vulnerable to M2 bullets everywhere except possibly the glacis (the AMX-13 that the DNC-1 is based on is proof against 12.7mm on the front, but the DNC-1's armor is only 30mm instead of the AMX's 40mm).
__________________
Writer at The Vespers War - World War I equipment for v2.2
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 10-14-2017, 01:53 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,092
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark View Post
According to Jane's, the first delivery of the DNC-1 was in 1993, the same year as the DNC-2/BDX. They're vulnerable to M2 bullets everywhere except possibly the glacis (the AMX-13 that the DNC-1 is based on is proof against 12.7mm on the front, but the DNC-1's armor is only 30mm instead of the AMX's 40mm).
Deliveries of AMX-VCI started in 1994 when 33 were registered as sold to Mexico. This was followed by 18 in 1995 and 22 in 1996. After that Belgium sold no more to Mexico, and other AMX-VCI's were later obtained from France.

However this in real life not the Twilight War. The AMX-VCI constituted one third of the Belgian Army's stock of tracked armoured personnel carriers. The rest were M113's, Spartans and AIFV-B's, and all the French Army's stocks of tracked armoured personnel carriers were AMX-10P's or AMX-VCI's. In the Twilight War timeline the Cold War is at 1980's levels and the Soviets are belligerent to the West. Belgian and French companies might be willing to sell new armoured vehicles to Mexico, but I cannot see Belgium of France transferring any armoured vehicles from their own armies to Mexico.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 10-14-2017, 04:39 AM
Rainbow Six's Avatar
Rainbow Six Rainbow Six is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 1,374
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
In the Twilight War timeline the Cold War is at 1980's levels and the Soviets are belligerent to the West. Belgian and French companies might be willing to sell new armoured vehicles to Mexico, but I cannot see Belgium of France transferring any armoured vehicles from their own armies to Mexico.
Agreed. You can't use a V1 timeline and real life inventories from the mid 1990's - the two are mutually exclusive. As an example, the British Army in the mid 1990's was around 18% smaller than it was in 1989 as a result of post Cold War cuts, with armoured Regiments particularly hard hit - halved from sixteen to eight. There is no way that it could have fielded the five Divisions that are listed in the v1 NATO Vehicle Guide / SGUK - a number of the Regiments listed no longer existed in real life.
__________________
A collection of articles written for the Twilight 2000 Role Playing Game

http://www.twilight2000files.com
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 10-14-2017, 05:40 AM
StainlessSteelCynic's Avatar
StainlessSteelCynic StainlessSteelCynic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 1,478
Default

Whoa whoa whoa... so let me get this right. Someone complains about the lack of proper research done by the original authors and then uses poor research himself to "correct" somebody's inventory for Mexico?
Like it's been pointed out already, using the post-Cold War inventory is bad, it screws up the inventories of other nations etc. etc. and for a Cold War game scenario, you can't get away with robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 10-14-2017, 07:47 AM
.45cultist .45cultist is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 812
Default

The implosion of the Mexican coalition could pull more units back home for a civil war. A campaign to offer the Soviets their own Omega could change things and stay close to canon.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 10-14-2017, 08:52 AM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: East Tennessee, USA
Posts: 2,514
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
If you look at what engaged them when they invaded there wasnt much in the way of armor

49th Armored - biggest armored division that directly engaged the Mexicans - they never sent the two training brigades which to me makes no sense - they did well against the Mexicans and then ran into Soviet Division Cuba and got their butts handed to them

40th Mech - a new unit that had a grab bag of armor attached to it - meaning that they never had their full complement or even close to it - which can be seen by how many engineering "tanks" they used

46th Infantry - got overrun when stretched out badly and wasnt exactly a armor heavy unit to begin with

then you have two MP formations in CA and light infantry divisions that basically had no armor except M113's

and remember Mexico started the war with 500 or so APC's, many of them armed with 20mm cannons, as well as a good amount of armored cars that had a 90mm anti-tank gun - so against most of those units I just described they actually were close to one on one or better - and with the numbers involved they had numerical superiority as well - and most likely had gas and diesel when a lot of US units had already converted over to alcohol

and the date of the invasion - June of 1998- means that what was left of the US Air Force in the states was probably very limited indeed
49th Armored Division is problematic at best, they did have the NATO reinforcement mission so why are they still in the U.S. It would have been more likely that the 50th Armored Division would be sent south, while they did have the NATO reinforcement mission as well, they were always regarded as the weaker of the two NG armored divisions.

Another big question is why the 194th Armored and 197th Mechanized Brigades were left stateside, again both are NATO reinforcements with POMCUS sites.

The 40th Mechanized Infantry Division was one of the Guard’s better divisions, true they were in search of a mission, being either a NATO reinforcement, a Korea reinforcement or a CENTCOM reinforcement. Of the three, it would have been more likely that they went CENTCOM, at least in the mid 1980s.
__________________
The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 10-16-2017, 01:40 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,824
Default

Certain arms transfers would most likely have taken place irregardless of the timelines

For instance the Mexican BDX (4 × 4) APC, which they designated the DNC-2. The BDX (95 of them) were all delivered to Mexico between 1993 and 1994 and most likely would have been supplied irregardless of timeline as they really werent front line vehicles for the Belgians.

As for how the Mexicans go the AMX from the Belgians - keep in mind that the Belgians did have an option to replace the AMX in their inventories, which was the real life and canon AIFV-B and M113 (improved version) - given the fact that the AIFV is much newer and more capable (as was the improved M113) over the AMX vehicles given the V1 timeline (where its still the Cold War and fighting the Russians is a huge concern) they would have continued to procure them and thus taken the much older AMX out of service (assuming that they increase their army size in any way to make use of the older vehicles once they had sufficient numbers of the new ones) - and selling them to Mexico gives the Mexicans the APC's they needed to make the invasion a success without giving the Mexicans a huge amount of new armor, that frankly the units still in the US wouldnt have been able to stop given the dispositions that were in canon

i.e. the 194th and 198th sure as hell would have been needed to stop them and would be in California and Texas and not in Cairo and Memphis if the Mexicans had had a large amount of main battle tanks and not just whatever the Soviets brought with Division Cuba

As for my research and your comments about it - frankly I wont even dignify that by responding

As for the choice of units I have - keep in mind that list is from canon - I personally dont agree with the canon reasoning about the two training armored units never going to Europe - if anything they should have went in 1998 when MilGov was trying to make it look like they could still support the war effort

and given the balance of forces in Europe by 1998 those two training units could have possibly given NATO a decisive advantage if they had shown up intact

Last edited by Olefin; 10-16-2017 at 04:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 10-16-2017, 10:14 PM
StainlessSteelCynic's Avatar
StainlessSteelCynic StainlessSteelCynic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 1,478
Default

Olefin, you make some mighty big assumptions that cannot be claimed as fact, they are supposition based upon your opinion. You cannot claim that anything is "most likely would have been" when you base your information on the real world situation after the Cold War was officially ended. If you could produce legitimate sources from before 1990 (i.e. before the end of the Cold War and the start of the "Peace Dividend") that back up your claim that these transfers would "most likely have happened", then I'll happily stop arguing your claim.
Until such time as you can produce those sources, all you have is wishful thinking and that ain't research.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 10-16-2017, 11:33 PM
mpipes mpipes is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 111
Default

Olefin is certainly more on base than GDW ever was. The discussions on the board have highlighted quite accurately on various problems with canon. I have never accepted as gospel numerous items in canon as accurate or believable. In GDW's defense, there was no Internet and the designers were, in my opinion, more interested in providing a gaming world where a small group of adventurers could be a significant military force than an accurate reflection of realistic events. The designers were more interested in creating a "workable" atmosphere, and in this I think they did masterful.

I've always regarded GDW's, and other RPG, products as providing a base to be tweaked, modified, ignored, and incorporated. I've never accepted a historical Mexico as having a chance in hell of overrunning the southwestern US without having a lot more military power. The returnees from Operation Omega would never have been discharged; they would have gone south and north to clean the invaders out.

In short, there are a lot of problems with canon. We all have our views and ways we addressed it. I for one greatly appreciate the comments of Olefin and others on their thoughts and views on the problems with canon and things to "fix" the problems.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 10-17-2017, 12:21 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,824
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
Olefin, you make some mighty big assumptions that cannot be claimed as fact, they are supposition based upon your opinion. You cannot claim that anything is "most likely would have been" when you base your information on the real world situation after the Cold War was officially ended. If you could produce legitimate sources from before 1990 (i.e. before the end of the Cold War and the start of the "Peace Dividend") that back up your claim that these transfers would "most likely have happened", then I'll happily stop arguing your claim.
Until such time as you can produce those sources, all you have is wishful thinking and that ain't research.
Sorry but the canon as a whole is all about might have beens. My suppositions are based on real world events. The Belgians were in the process of adding new vehicles to replace the old AMX vehicles when the Cold War came to an end. Those old AMX vehicles would have been surplus to their needs and thus would have been transferred. The new APC's they were getting were much more modern and thus effective.

Mexico was in the market for new APC's and thus the transfer that occurred in the 90's of the old AMX vehicles is a very likely occurence whatever the timeline. Especially given the fact that the Mexican Army was already operating French equipment and lots of it

Including 120 ERC-90 armored cars that arrived in the 1980's (i.e. during the Cold War) as well as Milan missiles (also during the Cold War), as well as 40 VBL (Cold War in the 80's), and 48 VCR-TT APC - thus given that level of equipment already from France getting even more French designed APC's would be of great interest to Mexico

Thus my supposition is based on real world facts - and I have legitimate sources from before 1990 - which by the way are the same ones the canon authors had that the Mexican Army would be operating French equipment - to back up the sale of those ex-Belgian Army APC's to Mexico - ones that they would have no longer needed once they had the more modern equipment to replace them

And also backed up by the canon writers who said specifically that the Mexican Army had no main battle tanks - that what they had were French armored cars and French APC's - which is exactly what I am saying was sufficient enough for the canon invasion to have occurred

especially against a US Army that by mid 1998 was low on fuel, low on spares and had most of its armor overseas and no easy way to get it back home
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 10-17-2017, 12:49 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,092
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
Certain arms transfers would most likely have taken place irregardless of the timelines

For instance the Mexican BDX (4 × 4) APC, which they designated the DNC-2. The BDX (95 of them) were all delivered to Mexico between 1993 and 1994 and most likely would have been supplied irregardless of timeline as they really werent front line vehicles for the Belgians.
The BDX is an Irish design wheeled APC built under license by Beherman Demoen. A total of 148 were built in Belgium but none were supplied to the Belgian Army, 63 went to the Belgian Air Force, 80 to the Belgian Gendarmerie and 5 to Argentina. The transfer of the Belgian BDX to Mexico occurred after the end of the Cold War. 95 were transferred between 1994 and 1995.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
As for how the Mexicans go the AMX from the Belgians - keep in mind that the Belgians did have an option to replace the AMX in their inventories, which was the real life and canon AIFV-B and M113 (improved version) - given the fact that the AIFV is much newer and more capable (as was the improved M113) over the AMX vehicles given the V1 timeline (where its still the Cold War and fighting the Russians is a huge concern) they would have continued to procure them and thus taken the much older AMX out of service (assuming that they increase their army size in any way to make use of the older vehicles once they had sufficient numbers of the new ones) - and selling them to Mexico gives the Mexicans the APC's they needed to make the invasion a success without giving the Mexicans a huge amount of new armor, that frankly the units still in the US wouldnt have been able to stop given the dispositions that were in canon.
The AMX-VCI was an older vehicles, but it's highly unlikely that Belgium transferred any to Mexico in the Twilight War timeline. The Belgian Army was considered the weakest of the NATO European armies that formed the component corps of CENTAG and NORTHAG in West Germany before the war, and the Belgians needed all the equipment they had.

The regular Belgian Army was I Corps of 1 armoured brigade, 3 mechanised brigades plus 1 para-commando regiment, 3 combat battalions and 15 artillery and support battalions. The Belgian Army reserve included 2 mechanised brigades and 17 infantry battalions. Both Belgian reserve mechanised brigades were outfitted with AMX-VCI and the Belgians had ittle else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
i.e. the 194th and 198th sure as hell would have been needed to stop them and would be in California and Texas and not in Cairo and Memphis if the Mexicans had had a large amount of main battle tanks and not just whatever the Soviets brought with Division Cuba

As for my research and your comments about it - frankly I wont even dignify that by responding

As for the choice of units I have - keep in mind that list is from canon - I personally dont agree with the canon reasoning about the two training armored units never going to Europe - if anything they should have went in 1998 when MilGov was trying to make it look like they could still support the war effort

and given the balance of forces in Europe by 1998 those two training units could have possibly given NATO a decisive advantage if they had shown up intact
Olefin if you don't agree with canon that is your own choice. But canon does state that the 194th and 197th brigades are in CONUS, and I am happy to stick with canon.

Last edited by RN7; 10-17-2017 at 02:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 10-17-2017, 12:52 AM
StainlessSteelCynic's Avatar
StainlessSteelCynic StainlessSteelCynic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 1,478
Default

And again you make suppositions without anything other than what you think would have happened. Where is the proof that the Belgians would have sold those vehicles rather than put them into war-stores?

My argument here is not about how correct or how wrong the original material is, it isn't about how overwhelmingly unrealistic some of it is, it is not even about what fixes Olefin, Buddha, little green men from Mars or anyone else in the universe chooses to apply to the game.

It has always been about the belligerant & insulting manner in which the original authors have been criticized for being unrealistic when the person supplying that criticism is himself making some claims that fall into that category.

For instance, the BDX vehicles belonged to the Belgian gendarmerie (aside from about 60 or so used by the air force for airfield defence units) and not the army. The gendarmerie was a paramiltary police force with some military duties. The BDXs were for rear area defence and internal security, they were not subject to the same use or replacement policies as the army's APCs.
The claim that they "most likely would have been sold to Mexico regardless of T2k timeline" based upon the post-Cold War reality that they were sold in the real world is entirely speculative and not supported by any official Belgian source from before the 1990s (i.e. the period of time before the Peace Dividend was in effect and the vehicles were declared surplus to requirements).

Last edited by StainlessSteelCynic; 10-17-2017 at 12:54 AM. Reason: Correcting number of vehicles used by Belgian air force
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 10-17-2017, 07:49 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,824
Default

"It has always been about the belligerent & insulting manner in which the original authors have been criticized for being unrealistic when the person supplying that criticism is himself making some claims that fall into that category."

Sorry but no one is being either belligerent or insulting of the original authors.

And the claims that I am making are totally realistic

Fact - the Belgians were in the process of replacing their old APC's with new ones, many of them built in Belguim

Fact - the Mexican Army was operating a lot of French equipment as was trying to get more to modernize their army - and was buying mostly from the French so that it wouldnt strain their logistics system which already sucked

Fact - the Belgians would have most likely wanted to get rid of their older APC's now that they had new ones - which is indicated by the real world draw down in the 1990's

and also the canon - the three day stand in Texas by a bunch of military cadets, the fact that the School Brigade - with basically anti-aircraft weapons used against armor and the very nature of the Mexican Army who had never bought main battle tanks previously in the history of their armed forces except a few Stuarts that were used as recon armor and not tanks all add up to a Mexican military that would not have suddenly bought hundreds of tanks

and canon - the forces that were left in the US could not have stopped a Mexican Army as depicted in the fan canon sourcebook backed up by a Soviet Motor Rifle Division from taking a hell of a lot more territory unless every unit left in the US went to engage them - which THEY DID NOT - especially two armored brigades that for sure would have engaged them -
that alone shows that they could not have had that much heavy armor

in fact the canon saying that when the 197th did enter Texas it only did so to fight the Texian Legion and marauders tells you that the Mexicans didnt have any heavy armor of their own along for the ride

and my objection to canon comes down to the Mexicans being able to hold what they took for any length of time past 2000 considering the amount of new veteran US troops brought back to the country, considering that many of the areas they held would have had almost no water when the US cut off the supplies and that they were fighting a Civil War and had almost no logistical support of any kind

So am I objecting to the invasion itself - no - what I am objecting to is a very obviously flawed fan canon sourcebook that adds so much in the way of overall TOE to the Mexican Army that you would have to not just rewrite canon you would have to literally tear it up and ignore it - including Frank Chadwick's Mexican Army post in Challenge, the US Army Vehicle Guide and its dispositions of US forces after the invasion and Red Star Lone Star - in fact the only Mexican force with tanks is in City of Angels and its considered apocrypha mainly because of the sudden appearance of so much Russian equipment and almost no Mexican

if the Mexicans had built up a force with that many tanks the US would have only had one way to stop it - and basically that would have meant multiple nukes on both the US and Mexico in places like Texas, California, AZ and NM - and again thats a big time rewrite of canon history

You are looking at a Mexican Army with literally almost 1500 tanks plus Division Cuba against one armored division, one reforming mech division fitted with whatever tanks they could grab and two tank brigades that never even engaged the invasion - all low on gas and ammo - good luck stopping that short of Kansas or Oregon
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.